If a familys personal pain about a very private matter doesnt fit that category, I dont know what would. Theres so much we dont know. Register today! (And our atheist friend shows humility, respect, and insight.) i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. You drive over there, and sure enough theres the house thats in the picture from the magazine article. the powerbrokers have manipulated everyone to heavily invest their finances, their time, energy, their relationships, and their own life in the institution. With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. hospitable MORE CONCERNING THE ELDERSHIP If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. TS00: Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. What in the world is going on? Someone even mentioned an anti-Christ component here, which I agree with. Perpetua herself (the presumed writer of most of the Acts) also spends a lot of time talking about prophetic dreams and suchlike. Your support is what helps bring hope, and is a large part of the reason I chose to comment here at TWW. Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. Single pastor, plural pastors, plurality of elders, are pastors even a thing? He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. Not to say that we may not voluntarily partake of symbols and freely made offerings to God; but never again can any men or institutions demand that we submit to their demands or interpretations of How to be saved. ++++++++++++++, so what? The famous TV series director is a prominent name in the entertainment industry. Let the truth flow. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Churches will line up for this. Movies Popular Now Playing Upcoming Top Rated TV Shows Popular Airing Today On TV Top Rated People As Paul cautioned the church at large to beware of Alexander, he has done us much harm, so the watchblogs speak to inform and warn other believers to be wary of certain leaders. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. . chosen by the hand of Jesus? Keep reading. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. I am not Eastern Orthodox but I have been looking into it. Rich: I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Ill have to ruminate on that a while. TS00: perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. David: James MacDonald played poker I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support gambling problem, If someone aspires to the office of elder, he must be above reproach free from the love of money . The lampstand was removed a long time ago. For some, that would be a great option. information from others can be beneficial. Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? They act like the real problem is that they messed up in a technical way. Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. Lets keep in mind that the XLT members were all making 6 figures and had very generous T&E accounts and were living the life of rockstars prior to this implosion. Which answers your later points. IDK what the other XLT staffers and Elders are waiting for, but they will be judged if these wolves are allowed to set up new lairs due to their silence. EXACTLY the same as at Willow Creek Community Church. Or allowed to keep anything hidden from those who are part of the community? not given to wine Its happening now; how many of us are refugees from groups that went awol? You dont even have to be a tyrant to fall for that scheme of the devil. I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. All of these men, who were deeply involved long-term under visible, ungodly leadership have a lot to answer for. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. If bolstering the credibility of truth-tellers is a problem to you, your commitments are misplaced (to put it mildly). Im not going to say that to you. I will have to wait until I get to my computer because Im on my phone and the type of the letter is too small to read. Chicago is witnessing the implosions of two famous mega churches due to the allegations against their leadership pastors. dee: You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. Jeff Chalmers Many parents contacted the school about it, and it was one of the first of many, many issues that arose there. I wish it wasnt so. ++++++++++++++. Nelson, Dallas Jenkins, Garrett Higbee, Trei Tatum, and Rick Donald. That was 30 years ago and it proved to be true. . Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. Im sure it depends on the setting and the ministry of the church. I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. he has no tore proof to offer me. Ken F (aka Tweed): Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. I dont have a huge problem with the idea of multiple leaders who put their necks on the line like the people in the early church serving others, and because theyre typically older and recognized as more kind and stable and servant-like, people are told to consider seriously what they have to say (about the best translation of the word unfortunately translated obey in HEB 13:17. Do you mean it was given to those elders who assisted in helping JMac continue on with his antics? The people of God have forsaken their first love. Your story matches what I hear from lots of people. As Law Prof noted, JMac is not your usual run-of-the-mill preacher he had an international stage he had thousands of followers he failed you, HBC, and the church at large he has disqualified himself from ministry. The evidence points to a scam designed to benefit one person only. Maybe the good old fashioned seven deadly sins list would be a good list to start with. Watch Video. Never! Evangelicalism began going after talent over the least among you and I truly believe it actually is a large part of the failing of all of these churches. This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. Begin your journey with the prayer. You and the other TWW regulars feel like family. I can completely understand why Dee wouldnt want people here to be dragging stuff out and speculating about a teenage boy. He moved to Plano. i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. I had a churchgoer tell me once in a Bible Study to Lighten up Max. There is no believing without proof. I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. Worse, I believe this shows arrogance on Dees part And believe you me Unless you give facts and verifiable information how do we know this is not part of a plan to cover things up? I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. This could be real or fabricated, such as recordings of people, say, playing the Name Game, or threats of kicking their kids out, planting child porn on their devices or otherwise destroying their reputations. Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. Noevangelical: Lowlandseer, General Groupthink consensus did the job very well by itself. He is not egotistical, and not, as is so falsely asserted, all about getting glory he is all about stepping through the barriers of time and space to reveal his gentle, sacrificial love for us. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. He is best known as the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, the first multi-season series about the life of Jesus of Nazareth. If Paul was out of line, then certainly Luke was to blame for not exposing the sham. In a godly biblical hierarchy, what would flow downhill would be love and care. He is my Fortress (part 2) Posted on July 11, 2009 by Jeff Block. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. Harvest Bible Chapel Fayetteville. Forgive MacDonald if he genuinely repents? It sounds more like men puffing up their status among the brothers . But adding the concept of God to the mix , *God is inhabiting the warm water, so im mystically being helped by it and on my way to becoming a Superhero for God. Thems shootin words in these parts (Christianville), maam. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. elastigirl: there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. Together, they developed a vision for this church, which grew into the Four PillarsUnapologetic Preaching, Unashamed Adoration, Unceasing Prayer, and Unafraid Witness. All we get is CYA, after the fact, trying to make the best of whats already been leaked. etc. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. You were *in charge* so to speak for years. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? The images of Christs mother Mary witnessing her sons torture, the glances and faces of the cast Mel Gibson portrayed were (and frankly still are) made to elicit deep evil and were very frightening to see, and the utter agony of Christs pain was so graphic, I still cant erase it from my memory. Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: Dallas was complicit in this, and hes still complicit in attempting to hide the truth. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. How to do church that has nothing to do with Jesus, then. He promised never to leave me, What makes you think you get to excuse yourself from the table? It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. I guess its all a matter of perspective. It really doesnt take long for traditions to get set in stone, as it were. We have seen that the octopus has many arms, from mega-churches to major christian publications to all of the organizations that feed the monster. And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. The Chosen is Different. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. In March of 2000, Harvest Bible Chapel adopted the mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). be in sin, It doesnt even matter if you post your actual name, if someone is full of venom for you, theyll find some reason to spew it. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra. not self-willed The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. Please think about all the others who will fall under these cultic practices if these perpetrators and their deeds are not brought into the open. Truly hope you get peace and joy soon. Was it released or leaked? This has been going on now for 12 years. understanding that each of us is constantly growing and shifting. He claimed to be a guy who could show people the way. As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. (GOO GOO GA JOOB!)). Everyone who is of the Truth, who is a friend of the Truth and belongs to the Truth, hears and listens carefully to My voice. (Jesus, John 18:37). Temptation sharp and keen. Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. There is more than enough dirt throughout this enterprise to make one doubt the integrity or honesty of anyone who was ever long a part of it. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. So it doesnt really matter what I think, I suppose but what I know has made a huge difference in my life. Lol. To no avail, because his problem is not that he struggles with imperfection but that he is a fake, a phony, a self-seeking narcissist who manipulates and abuses others for self profit and aggrandizement. Bad decisions lead to pain. 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